Number crunching

[TonyasTaters]

4 minutes ago, shiva2999 said:

Speak for yourself.

I've been doing this for 22 fucking years and I've been proven correct every time..

So, why am I disqualified from expert status whereas blonde bimbos and paid mouthpieces at CNN and MSNBC qualify?

For fuck's sake, use your head.

It's supposedly what we're here for.

And I am the arrogant one... Have you ever testified as an expert in a court of law? I have and it was for chain of custody of blood samples in a DUI case. Why was I an expert?  Because I had two decades of lab experience. This is how it works. You have provided zero evidence that you any real life experience in foreign relations. You are just a guy so get over yourself.

[shiva2999]

6 minutes ago, TonyasTaters said:

And I am the arrogant one... Have you ever testified as an expert in a court of law? 

No.

So what?

Is there such a thing as "expertise"?

Of course.

Does it require a diploma?

No.

Just because you have a degree doesn't IN ANY WAY guarantee the validity of your opinions.

It's only evidence that at one point in your life, you learned something.

And not having a degree does not mean your opinions are invallid.

Because we have the ability to learn until the day we die.

[TonyasTaters]

2 minutes ago, shiva2999 said:

No.

So what?

Is there such a thing as "expertise"?

Of course.

Does it require a diploma?

No.

Just because you have a degree doesn't IN ANY WAY guarantee the validity of your opinions.

It's only evidence that at one point in your life, you learned something.

And not having a degree does not mean your opinions are invallid.

Because we have the ability to learn until the day we die.

You don't have the specific knowledge and you have not gained it either through experiences or accreditation. Why do you think many professions require some sort of license. Get over it you are just a regular guy just like me. Yes you have opinions just like anyone else but you have zero credentials that make your more valid than any other lay person. 

[shiva2999]

3 minutes ago, TonyasTaters said:

You don't have the specific knowledge and you have not gained it either through experiences or accreditation. Why do you think many professions require some sort of license.

Why?

Because they want to monetize the time and effort.

[shiva2999]

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/appeal-to-authority-fallacy/

 

What is the appeal to authority fallacy?

The appeal to authority fallacy is the logical fallacy of saying a claim is true simply because an authority figure made it. This authority figure could be anyone: an instructor, a politician, a well-known academic, an author, or even an individual with experience related to the claim’s subject. 

The statement itself may be true. A statement’s truthfulness has nothing to do with whether it’s fallacious or not. What makes the appeal to authority a logical fallacy is the lack of evidence provided to support the claim. It follows this format: 

Individual, who is an expert in Y field, says X is true. 

Therefore, X is true. 

Just like the other “appeal to” fallacies, the appeal to authority fallacy is a fallacy of relevance. That means the claim the arguer makes to support their statement is irrelevant to the discussion and thus illogical. Other fallacies of relevance include the bandwagon fallacy and the red herring fallacy.

You might ask yourself, “How can an authority’s statement be irrelevant? Isn’t citing credible sources the basis of a logically sound argument?”

Well, yes. And this is where the appeal to authority fallacy can get tricky. Unlike, for example, an appeal to pity, it’s possible for an appeal to authority to be a logically sound argument. This isn’t the only type of argument that has both fallacious and non-fallacious uses. Others include the slippery slope and sunk cost fallacies. The difference between a fallacious and non-fallacious appeal to authority, like these others, is how it’s used. 

Take a look at this example: 

“My adviser told me I’m a stronger candidate for grad school if I take advanced writing courses.”

Alone, it’s a declarative sentence. But look at it in a conversation. 

Grad school admissions counselor: To get into grad school at our university, you need at least a 3.5 GPA.

Applicant: My adviser told me I’m a stronger candidate for grad school if I take advanced writing courses.

It might be a true statement, but in the context of this conversation, that doesn’t matter. The applicant’s adviser isn’t part of the grad school’s admissions office, and their statement about advanced writing courses doesn’t negate the counselor’s statement about the required GPA. This is what makes it an appeal to authority fallacy. 

However, the statement can also be used in a non-fallacious way. Here is another exchange. 

Student A: I really want to go to grad school, but I’m not sure how to stand out from the other applicants. 

Student B: My adviser told me I’m a stronger candidate for grad school if I take advanced writing courses. 

Notice how in this second example, the statement isn’t used as an argument or a rebuttal. It’s a declarative sentence that communicates a fact that could help Student A plan their course load.

What are the different types of the appeal to authority fallacy?

Not all appeal to authority arguments attribute their claim to a legitimate, qualified authority. Sometimes, an arguer attributes their claim to a figure who’s an authority in an unrelated field—and other times, to a figure who’s not an authority at all!

Appeal to false authority

For example, you might claim that your older sister, who holds a master’s in literature, said it’s perfectly fine to use MLA format for your lab report. This is an appeal to false authority. Your sister might hold an advanced degree, but as a literature student, it’s likely she never or rarely used APA format. Therefore, she’s not an expert on the kind of formatting that’s required in science courses. 

Another name for the appeal to false authority fallacy is an appeal to unqualified authority.

Appeal to anonymous authority

An appeal to anonymous authority is an appeal to authority that doesn’t attribute the claim to any specific person. Rather, the arguer attributes it to an unnamed individual or, more commonly, group of individuals. Here are a few examples: 

• Authors say you have to write every day if you want to become a good writer.
• According to scientists, 5G is harmful. 
• They’re trying to ban plastic shopping bags. 

As seen in the last example, an appeal to anonymous authority can be attributed to a group as vague as “they.”

Legitimate appeals to authority

As we mentioned earlier, there are some instances where supporting a claim with an expert’s insight is logically sound. For an appeal to authority to be legitimate, the authority must be qualified to speak on the subject being discussed, and their statement must be directly relevant to that subject. 

For example, you might reduce your sugar intake and tell your friends you chose to do this because your doctor told you it would improve your health. In this case, your doctor is qualified to give you medical and lifestyle advice, so there’s nothing illogical about telling your friends that this is why you began eating less sugar. 

However, if you were to write a research paper on why excessive sugar consumption is harmful to humans’ health, it would be fallacious to cite your doctor’s advice as a source. If your doctor conducted peer-reviewed studies on sugar’s effects on human health, then citing those studies would be a different story. But your doctor’s personalized medical advice to you isn’t sufficient evidence to support the claims you make in your academic writing. 

How to avoid using the appeal to authority fallacy

The key to avoiding the appeal to authority fallacy in your writing is to cite only credible facts and data. When you mention your source’s authors in your work, structure your references in a way that demonstrates that you’re citing their findings, rather than simply name-dropping them. Take a look at these two examples. 

Appeal to authority fallacy:

“Dr. Plano, an expert on modern European drama, said the lamp in Strindberg’s The Father represents the captain’s mental state.”

Logically sound appeal: 

“Through her extensive research, Dr. Plano has explored the lamp featured prominently in Strindberg’s The Father and written about its role as a symbol of the captain’s mental state.”

Appeal to authority fallacy examples

“My mentor, who holds a PhD in philosophy, said philosophy is the most challenging academic discipline. That’s why I decided to study art history.”

“Scientists have proved that the only way to catch a cold is to be exposed to a cold virus.”

Appeal to authority fallacy FAQ

What is the appeal to authority fallacy?

The appeal to authority fallacy is the logical fallacy of claiming that because an expert said something is true then it must be true. 

How does the appeal to authority fallacy work?

Typically, the appeal to authority fallacy follows this format: 

Individual, who is an expert in Y field, says X is true. 

Therefore, X is true. 

What are the different kinds of appeal to authority fallacies?

• Appeal to anonymous authority
• Appeal to false authority

Additionally, there are instances where citing an authority’s expertise to support a claim isn’t a logical fallacy. These are known as legitimate appeals to authority. 

 

[TonyasTaters]

43 minutes ago, shiva2999 said:

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/appeal-to-authority-fallacy/

 

What is the appeal to authority fallacy?

The appeal to authority fallacy is the logical fallacy of saying a claim is true simply because an authority figure made it. This authority figure could be anyone: an instructor, a politician, a well-known academic, an author, or even an individual with experience related to the claim’s subject. 

The statement itself may be true. A statement’s truthfulness has nothing to do with whether it’s fallacious or not. What makes the appeal to authority a logical fallacy is the lack of evidence provided to support the claim. It follows this format: 

Individual, who is an expert in Y field, says X is true. 

Therefore, X is true. 

Just like the other “appeal to” fallacies, the appeal to authority fallacy is a fallacy of relevance. That means the claim the arguer makes to support their statement is irrelevant to the discussion and thus illogical. Other fallacies of relevance include the bandwagon fallacy and the red herring fallacy.

You might ask yourself, “How can an authority’s statement be irrelevant? Isn’t citing credible sources the basis of a logically sound argument?”

Well, yes. And this is where the appeal to authority fallacy can get tricky. Unlike, for example, an appeal to pity, it’s possible for an appeal to authority to be a logically sound argument. This isn’t the only type of argument that has both fallacious and non-fallacious uses. Others include the slippery slope and sunk cost fallacies. The difference between a fallacious and non-fallacious appeal to authority, like these others, is how it’s used. 

Take a look at this example: 

“My adviser told me I’m a stronger candidate for grad school if I take advanced writing courses.”

Alone, it’s a declarative sentence. But look at it in a conversation. 

Grad school admissions counselor: To get into grad school at our university, you need at least a 3.5 GPA.

Applicant: My adviser told me I’m a stronger candidate for grad school if I take advanced writing courses.

It might be a true statement, but in the context of this conversation, that doesn’t matter. The applicant’s adviser isn’t part of the grad school’s admissions office, and their statement about advanced writing courses doesn’t negate the counselor’s statement about the required GPA. This is what makes it an appeal to authority fallacy. 

However, the statement can also be used in a non-fallacious way. Here is another exchange. 

Student A: I really want to go to grad school, but I’m not sure how to stand out from the other applicants. 

Student B: My adviser told me I’m a stronger candidate for grad school if I take advanced writing courses. 

Notice how in this second example, the statement isn’t used as an argument or a rebuttal. It’s a declarative sentence that communicates a fact that could help Student A plan their course load.

What are the different types of the appeal to authority fallacy?

Not all appeal to authority arguments attribute their claim to a legitimate, qualified authority. Sometimes, an arguer attributes their claim to a figure who’s an authority in an unrelated field—and other times, to a figure who’s not an authority at all!

Appeal to false authority

For example, you might claim that your older sister, who holds a master’s in literature, said it’s perfectly fine to use MLA format for your lab report. This is an appeal to false authority. Your sister might hold an advanced degree, but as a literature student, it’s likely she never or rarely used APA format. Therefore, she’s not an expert on the kind of formatting that’s required in science courses. 

Another name for the appeal to false authority fallacy is an appeal to unqualified authority.

Appeal to anonymous authority

An appeal to anonymous authority is an appeal to authority that doesn’t attribute the claim to any specific person. Rather, the arguer attributes it to an unnamed individual or, more commonly, group of individuals. Here are a few examples: 

• Authors say you have to write every day if you want to become a good writer.
• According to scientists, 5G is harmful. 
• They’re trying to ban plastic shopping bags. 

As seen in the last example, an appeal to anonymous authority can be attributed to a group as vague as “they.”

Legitimate appeals to authority

As we mentioned earlier, there are some instances where supporting a claim with an expert’s insight is logically sound. For an appeal to authority to be legitimate, the authority must be qualified to speak on the subject being discussed, and their statement must be directly relevant to that subject. 

For example, you might reduce your sugar intake and tell your friends you chose to do this because your doctor told you it would improve your health. In this case, your doctor is qualified to give you medical and lifestyle advice, so there’s nothing illogical about telling your friends that this is why you began eating less sugar. 

However, if you were to write a research paper on why excessive sugar consumption is harmful to humans’ health, it would be fallacious to cite your doctor’s advice as a source. If your doctor conducted peer-reviewed studies on sugar’s effects on human health, then citing those studies would be a different story. But your doctor’s personalized medical advice to you isn’t sufficient evidence to support the claims you make in your academic writing. 

How to avoid using the appeal to authority fallacy

The key to avoiding the appeal to authority fallacy in your writing is to cite only credible facts and data. When you mention your source’s authors in your work, structure your references in a way that demonstrates that you’re citing their findings, rather than simply name-dropping them. Take a look at these two examples. 

Appeal to authority fallacy:

“Dr. Plano, an expert on modern European drama, said the lamp in Strindberg’s The Father represents the captain’s mental state.”

Logically sound appeal: 

“Through her extensive research, Dr. Plano has explored the lamp featured prominently in Strindberg’s The Father and written about its role as a symbol of the captain’s mental state.”

Appeal to authority fallacy examples

“My mentor, who holds a PhD in philosophy, said philosophy is the most challenging academic discipline. That’s why I decided to study art history.”

“Scientists have proved that the only way to catch a cold is to be exposed to a cold virus.”

Appeal to authority fallacy FAQ

What is the appeal to authority fallacy?

The appeal to authority fallacy is the logical fallacy of claiming that because an expert said something is true then it must be true. 

How does the appeal to authority fallacy work?

Typically, the appeal to authority fallacy follows this format: 

Individual, who is an expert in Y field, says X is true. 

Therefore, X is true. 

What are the different kinds of appeal to authority fallacies?

• Appeal to anonymous authority
• Appeal to false authority

Additionally, there are instances where citing an authority’s expertise to support a claim isn’t a logical fallacy. These are known as legitimate appeals to authority. 

 

You are trying waaaaay to hard here. Your own reference supports my argument.See below... Who do you think conducts the peer reviewed study? Experts in that field not just random lay people. 

" if you were to write a research paper on why excessive sugar consumption is harmful to humans’ health, it would be fallacious to cite your doctor’s advice as a source. If your doctor conducted peer-reviewed studies on sugar’s effects on human health, then citing those studies would be a different story. But your doctor’s personalized medical advice to you isn’t sufficient evidence to support the claims you make in your academic writing. " 

[Herodotus]

2 hours ago, shiva2999 said:

Interesting.

Truth is decided by "expert" opinion.

What makes one an "expert"? Getting paid for one's opinions?

Pros are experts and amateurs are fools by definition?

When you want the truth, do you say "Find out what all the experts say so I know what opinions to believe!"?

Remember who you are dealing with Shiva:

 

 

[shiva2999]

25 minutes ago, TonyasTaters said:

You are trying waaaaay to hard here. Your own reference supports my argument.See below... Who do you think conducts the peer reviewed study? Experts in that field not just random lay people. 

" if you were to write a research paper on why excessive sugar consumption is harmful to humans’ health, it would be fallacious to cite your doctor’s advice as a source. If your doctor conducted peer-reviewed studies on sugar’s effects on human health, then citing those studies would be a different story. But your doctor’s personalized medical advice to you isn’t sufficient evidence to support the claims you make in your academic writing. " 

Can we conclude that 2 + 2 = 4 without a PhD in mathematics?

Can we conclude the sun rises in the east and sets in the west without a PhD in Astronomy?

You're using the same rationale as dictatorships.

"Nothing is true unless authority verifies it as truth!" ignores the human race's history of of being fed bullshit from so called authorities.

Now, this is not to say that authority's opinion should be disregarded, but it shouldn't be slavishly believed either.

Because I hate to tell you but people will lie when it's to their advantage.

Believe it or not.

[TonyasTaters]

2 minutes ago, shiva2999 said:

Can we conclude that 2 + 2 = 4 without a PhD in mathematics?

Can we conclude the sun rises in the east and sets in the west without a PhD in Astronomy?

You're using the same rationale as dictatorships.

"Nothing is true unless authority verifies it as truth!" ignores the human race's history of of being fed bullshit from so called authorities.

Now, this is not to say that authority's opinion should be disregarded, but it shouldn't be slavishly believed either.

Because I hate to tell you but people will lie when it's to their advantage.

Believe it or not.

That's why we have debate and those with expertise bring what they have to the table. Facts matter and we let is shake out from there. Yes people will lie that's why expertise is important to shake out the BS. Anyone can say anything they want but the truth lies with those who have the specific knowledge. You gave a very long breakdown of the authority falacy which pointed out the importance of peer review and that is where the truth shakes out. You can't have a Mechanic review a study on a pharmacuettical drug that's why it's important to have those experts in the field verify it. I am not sure why this is so hard to understand. Maybe it's because I have been in academics and a highly regulated field of work.  I just hope you have learned that you need to trust others in their area of expertise anf open your mind to the truth. 

[shiva2999]

22 minutes ago, TonyasTaters said:

That's why we have debate and those with expertise bring what they have to the table. Facts matter and we let is shake out from there. Yes people will lie that's why expertise is important to shake out the BS. Anyone can say anything they want but the truth lies with those who have the specific knowledge. You gave a very long breakdown of the authority falacy which pointed out the importance of peer review and that is where the truth shakes out. You can't have a Mechanic review a study on a pharmacuettical drug that's why it's important to have those experts in the field verify it. I am not sure why this is so hard to understand. Maybe it's because I have been in academics and a highly regulated field of work.  I just hope you have learned that you need to trust others in their area of expertise anf open your mind to the truth. 

Oh, please.

We are talking POLITICS here, not fucking science or medicine.

Politics is a subject that can be polled but not measured because it involves not just the brain but also the human heart.

And what that brings is situations like we have today, where we risk planetary eradication because of the battle between two groups of people that are physically identical killing each other because they have different visions of the Big Guy in the sky.

In other words it's art, not science.

White art vs black art.

Twas ever thus.

 

[TonyasTaters]

7 minutes ago, shiva2999 said:

Oh, please.

We are talking POLITICS here, not fucking science or medicine.

Politics is a subject that can be polled but not measured because it involves not just the brain but also the human heart.

And what that brings is situations like we have today, where we risk planetary eradication because of the battle between two groups of people that are physically identical killing each other because they have different visions of the Big Guy in the sky.

In other words it's art, not science.

White art vs black art.

Twas ever thus.

 

That's your issue . . You distinguish the two, politics and science. Just look at the COVID vaccine. For some politics won over science when it came to vaccines. Issue is truth isn't truth anymore because of so much misinformation out there. There is a science to politics. It's knowing how to determine the lay man from the expert. In the area of foreign relations you are a lay man just like me. 

[shiva2999]

9 minutes ago, TonyasTaters said:

That's your issue . . You distinguish the two, politics and science. Just look at the COVID vaccine. For some politics won over science when it came to vaccines. Issue is truth isn't truth anymore because of so much misinformation out there. There is a science to politics. It's knowing how to determine the lay man from the expert. In the area of foreign relations you are a lay man just like me. 

There's a "science" to everything BUT THE HUMAN HEART.

There's a ton of stuff in the world that can't be quantified.

War, peace, religion, good and evil all depend on your point of view.

[Very Wide Right]

4 hours ago, TonyasTaters said:

Yeah 2 kids middle school age a son and daughter. Kids play sports which keeps me busy. I am sure there will be a spin on this. 

Your kids do all of that? You should actually get involved instead of posting bullshit here 24/7.

[Very Wide Right]

15 hours ago, Herodotus said:

A year or so ago @TonyasTaters lamented, and rightly so I add, 450 Ukrainian children dying.  Hell, he called me a war criminal supporter even when I posted UN Human Rights Commission figures that show Russia has only killed 9,600 some odd Civilians. 

See for yourself:

https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/09/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-24-september-2023#_ftn1

 

Truly, a terrible amount of people and inexcusable.  Its also why I hate war as in war no matter how hard you try to avoid it and Russia has certainly shown far more restraint than the "rules based" world order nations of the US and Britain are capable of (Iraqi civilian dead per year were at least 35,000 and maybe as much as half a million).  Now Tony, Tonya, Bill, whatever, I agree 450 children dead and 10,000 civilian dead is a tragedy.  

So I ask you Tonya, what do you say about Israel's killing of Palestinian Children? Per the UN 160 children are being killed a day because of the current Israeli war.  10,000 people have died in two months and we may never know how many are dying because unlike Ukraine, nobody's propaganda organs has any real reason to keep track of civilian death.  

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-forces-cut-off-north-gaza-as-palestinian-death-toll-from-monthlong-war-passes-10000#:~:text=Casualties will likely rise on,Hamas that started the conflict.

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-11-1-2023-children-killed-4a352398b32887e60a658e0270f0a021

 

 

The Palestinian children are the victims of their parents' decision to elect and wholeheartedly support a regime of terror.

[Very Wide Right]

3 hours ago, SpikedLemonade said:

None.

You bore us.

Yeah, Spike has a busy and exciting life.

[TonyasTaters]

18 minutes ago, Very Wide Right said:

Your kids do all of that? You should actually get involved instead of posting bullshit here 24/7.

Lol how many kids do you have Mr. Prolife? Btw how is pro life working out. Dobbs is a complete failure l.

[SpikedLemonade]

6 hours ago, shiva2999 said:

There's a "science" to everything BUT THE HUMAN HEART.

There's a ton of stuff in the world that can't be quantified.

War, peace, religion, good and evil all depend on your point of view.

New strain from your weed dealer?

What is it called — “A View of Heaven”?

[SpikedLemonade]

6 hours ago, Very Wide Right said:

Your kids do all of that? You should actually get involved instead of posting bullshit here 24/7.

Tonya, take this parental advice from a piece of shit who has never got close to fathering a child.

[SpikedLemonade]

6 hours ago, Very Wide Right said:

Yeah, Spike has a busy and exciting life.

I do actually.

Thank you for recognizing that.

Still I managed to carve out 2+ hours to spend time with the Vets at the local Legion and bringing old Peter enough of my homemade Broccoli & Cheese Soup  I made this morning to feed him for a week.

[TonyasTaters]

9 hours ago, SpikedLemonade said:

I do actually.

Thank you for recognizing that.

Still I managed to carve out 2+ hours to spend time with the Vets at the local Legion and bringing old Peter enough of my homemade Broccoli & Cheese Soup  I made this morning to feed him for a week.

Great to hear you are helping out a veteran. Thank you for that! 

[SpikedLemonade]

11 minutes ago, TonyasTaters said:

Great to hear you are helping out a veteran. Thank you for that! 

 

I must have cooked food for him over a dozen times.

Good guy.

Very funny.