The world did not begin on Thursday June 2, 1983

[Herodotus]

Human history did not begin on June 2, 1983.  I have no right to minimalize all that happened before that day by claiming that only those things that happened after that day matter and that somehow everything that happened after that day happened in a vacuum and were not part of far longer and older historical developments.  If I did pretend that only things that happened from that time forward mattered you would be right to suspect I was being mendacious and was pressing an agenda that itself was mendacious.  

The same is true if you say that Ukraine's history began on Feb 24, 2022 and called anything and everything before that a strawman and a schizoid argument.  Nothing ever happens in a vacuum.  Nothing just happens.  Putin didn't wake up one morning and over kasha and tea start maniacally laughing and decide to invade Ukraine because he hates freedom.  As an aside anytime you hear from a politician or military official that country or group x is attacking, hates, wants to destroy our freedom, democracy, and way of life alarm bells need to start going off that you are being lied to.

You may want to, as Robert McNamara implored us to do, empathize with the "enemy." What is it that motivated Putin to attack? What was his reason? Dyauh the tv said it was unpwowoked and I am woke as fuck derp.  Well that opinion is bullshit and does not reflect reality.   

 

So in terms of Ukraine, lets ask ourselves what happened in 1991, 1995 1998, 2004, and 2013-14, 2015, 2016, 2018 etc that motivated Putin to risk so much to gain so very little.  Again, nothing just happens.  As Fred Dalton Thompson said in Hunt for Red October, "what's his plan son? The Russians don't take a dump without first having a plan." To understand Putin's war plan, you must understand what drove him to risk so very much.  Find out why Russia invaded Ukraine, and it wasn't just unprovokef (only liars, morons, and the schizowoke think that) and then maybe we can find the means to end this war and ensure a lasting peace.

[ICRockets2]

11 minutes ago, Herodotus said:

Human history did not begin on June 2, 1983.  I have no right to minimalize all that happened before that day by claiming that only those things that happened after that day matter and that somehow everything that happened after that day happened in a vacuum and were not part of far longer and older historical developments.  If I did pretend that only things that happened from that time forward mattered you would be right to suspect I was being mendacious and was pressing an agenda that itself was mendacious.  

The same is true if you say that Ukraine's history began on Feb 24, 2022 and called anything and everything before that a strawman and a schizoid argument.  Nothing ever happens in a vacuum.  Nothing just happens.  Putin didn't wake up one morning and over kasha and tea start maniacally laughing and decide to invade Ukraine because he hates freedom.  As an aside anytime you hear from a politician or military official that country or group x is attacking, hates, wants to destroy our freedom, democracy, and way of life alarm bells need to start going off that you are being lied to.

You may want to, as Robert McNamara implored us to do, empathize with the "enemy." What is it that motivated Putin to attack? What was his reason? Dyauh the tv said it was unpwowoked and I am woke as fuck derp.  Well that opinion is bullshit and does not reflect reality.   

 

So in terms of Ukraine, lets ask ourselves what happened in 1991, 1995 1998, 2004, and 2013-14, 2015, 2016, 2018 etc that motivated Putin to risk so much to gain so very little.  Again, nothing just happens.  As Fred Dalton Thompson said in Hunt for Red October, "what's his plan son? The Russians don't take a dump without first having a plan." To understand Putin's war plan, you must understand what drove him to risk so very much.  Find out why Russia invaded Ukraine, and it wasn't just unprovokef (only liars, morons, and the schizowoke think that) and then maybe we can find the means to end this war and ensure a lasting peace.

You are insisting that we need to probe deep inside Putin's mind to understand his thought process at the same time that you dismiss the entire country of Ukraine as Nazis rather than regarding them as complex human beings with no single cohesive national political ideology.  The conversation you are purporting to want in this thread is not possible if the only person we exhaustingly and comprehensively psychoanalyze is Vladimir Putin.  This is doubly true if you intend to strip everybody else of their agency and simply brush them off as mindless puppets of American hegemony.

[shiva2999]

5 minutes ago, ICRockets2 said:

You are insisting that we need to probe deep inside Putin's mind to understand his thought process at the same time that you dismiss the entire country of Ukraine as Nazis rather than regarding them as complex human beings with no single cohesive national political ideology.  

Except we are not dismissing "the entire country of Ukraine as Nazis".

Hyperbole is the sign of someone  who realizes they have a weak argument.

[ICRockets2]

1 minute ago, shiva2999 said:

Except we are not dismissing "the entire country of Ukraine as Nazis".

Hyperbole is the sign of someone  who realizes they have a weak argument.

He literally uses the term 'Ukronazis' as interchangeable with 'the Ukrainian government'.  

[shiva2999]

7 minutes ago, ICRockets2 said:

He literally uses the term 'Ukronazis' as interchangeable with 'the Ukrainian government'.  

So what if he does?

If you're worried there's some sort of contradiction, there isn't.

[ICRockets2]

"We don't call them all Nazis"

"Gibby does"

"Well he's right"

 

[f8ta1ity54]

2 hours ago, ICRockets2 said:

"We don't call them all Nazis"

"Gibby does"

"Well he's right"

 

lol arguing with shiva is entertaining. He will disagree with you and then concede the point 2 posts later, then continues on with the conversation by moving the goal posts like nothing happened.

[Herodotus]

2 hours ago, ICRockets2 said:

"We don't call them all Nazis"

"Gibby does"

"Well he's right"

 

I call the government nazis, they are.  I don't call the people nazis but I call their government nazis, and their government is nazified.  Are you splitting pubic hairs again and building up strawmen to burn them down?

[Herodotus]

How to tell your government may be nazi-

1. Do ya silence political opposition groups in time of crisis?

 

2. Do you ban free press?

3. Are opposition politicians dead or in jail?

4. Is there a noticable merger of government and oligarchs?

 

5. Are ethnic minorities to be cleansed to protect the state?

6. Do you have a mythos that glorifies a past that doesn't exist?

7. Do you militarize your youth?

8. Do your soldiers and politicians paint themselves in swastikas, ss runes, and say nazi slogans while waving Nazi and SS flags and doing Nazi salutes?

9. Are books and movies and languages of enemy minoritied banned and burned?

10.do you have a reichskirche or a Uniate Orthodox church?

11. Are you antisemetic? Your fuehrer can be of Jewish and north African ancestry and still be antisemetic

12. Do blacks and other nonwhites get persecuted unduly?

13. Do you see your neighbors as subhuman?

If you answered yes to 11 or more of these your regime may be nazified

[shiva2999]

9 minutes ago, f8ta1ity54 said:

lol arguing with shiva is entertaining. He will disagree with you and then concede the point 2 posts later, then continues on with the conversation by moving the goal posts like nothing happened.

Sorry, but shiva doesn't fall for "we can only talk about history from this point forward" gambit.

If you ask disingenuous questions, you get disingenuous answers.

When you want to straighten up and fly right about the subject, then we can have a serious discussion.

But if you want to be cute, you'll get what you deserve.

[f8ta1ity54]

Just now, shiva2999 said:

Sorry, but shiva doesn't fall for "we can only talk about history from this point forward" gambit.

If you ask disingenuous questions, you get disingenuous answers.

When you want to straighten up and fly right about the subject, then we can have a serious discussion.

But if you want to be cute, you'll get what you deserve.

lol anyone who reads the conversation we had yesterday about Russians fleeing their country can see you conceded every point and moved the goal posts. 

[shiva2999]

2 minutes ago, f8ta1ity54 said:

lol anyone who reads the conversation we had yesterday about Russians fleeing their country can see you conceded every point and moved the goal posts. 

Oh, I seriously doubt that.

[Herodotus]

8 minutes ago, f8ta1ity54 said:

lol anyone who reads the conversation we had yesterday about Russians fleeing their country can see you conceded every point and moved the goal posts. 

[StraightJ]

3 hours ago, Herodotus said:

You may want to, as Robert McNamara implored us to do, empathize with the "enemy." What is it that motivated Putin to attack? What was his reason? Dyauh the tv said it was unpwowoked and I am woke as fuck derp.  Well that opinion is bullshit and does not reflect reality.   

 

 

May I ask why you call Putin the enemy?  And it's been long known what motivated the liberation from the regime that has occupied since the bloody western led coup the overthrew the rightful government in 2014.  Right at the time when you remember the media seemlessly shifted from the longest running "current thing" and went silent on for quite awhile with Dr Faustus in hiding(not a coincidence), it is because Putin was fighting for survival(similar to what Pushed Japan to make a desperate attempt at the same, which war secratary Stimpson in memoirs said he was so relieved they got them to fire the first shot, same with Hitler finally being forced to defend his separated citizens from the slaughter they had been sustaining from communist Poles.   Russia had become aware of the mobilization of a large number of forces who were going to take the 8 year civil war(in which 14,000  had died since Victoria Nuland picked the government, trying to keep "Kllitsch" as just a celebrity helper and not in office, etc.

It was said that once the troops invaded Donbass, they would embed themselves and use the citizens as human shields, as they had with their "own" non-Russian speaking Ukrainians, as I've long reported and as I was shocked to see Amnesty International tell the truth about.  As Texas born Russell Bentley (who at age 51 after seeing the gross injustice and wanting to defend the people of Donbass, doing so for about a year on the front lines before moving to the information aspect( said, this is a liberation.  As you noted, Putin did not just wake up one day and say, "Hey, I'm going to invade and occupy a nation because the US had been a bad influence on me with their repeated history of doing so!".

Bentley and 1 other unrelated independent reporter actually both used the same phrase maybe roughly a few months ago, saying that the Western media isn't just a little off, or even off most of the time, they both said the reports were literally "180 degrees" from the truth, literally the opposite. The old crying out in pain as they stab you in the back, which reminds me of the best line of the whole thing. (I picture it being done like Jim Mora PLAYOFFS?).  "NAZIS?  There are no Nazis in Ukraine, the whole thing is run by jews!!"  -Joe BIden 

Anyhow, unlike the US, Russia did NOT go in and do "shock and awe" bullshit, because these people are there brothers, and their goal was to limit death and destruction as much as possible, not to aware contracts to their cronies and cause terror and instability which is the main weapon those whole control your society use.

I don't normally like coming in here, but have a couple of times recently to see if it was true that SpikedProtein had accused HK of posting child pornography, but saw that thread was way too long to wade through looking for such a claim.   BUT I ddi come by a few months ago and was shocked to see a former hardcore TDS survivor @Professor Pigworthposting a truthful article on the matter.  I hadn't been back or read after that, but figured for sure by now you'd know all these things....especially you hero, with your interest in the area.  I am not being melodramatic when saying i am not sure if this lack of knowledge on your part after seeing what Pigworth posted several months ago might be even more shocking than me seeing him post that.   I mean you generally get things right. Like you identified one of 2 groups of people living toward the Middle East that we are not allowed to mention by name(and why Bernie was just on a talking tour and was not actually running or outraged at DNC collusion against him, a position a President would never be allowed to have..... though it's ok for Jared Kushner to break UN law by doing the opposite of Bernie, and stealing more land.  He just was ordered to pay $3,5 million dollars and was assigned a "special master" like his father in law for being a slumlord in Baltimore.  Something tells me his West Bank settlements aren't as slummy.

Anyhow, you identified the name of the people their in 400 BC, the name that remained until after WW2 when the British who had orchestrated the 2 events to turn it from the economic war into a hot war, renamed it when finally honoring the end of the Balfour Declaration.  Speaking of that lord, you way be interested to look up which lifetime achievement award the most powerful one of this  earth was awarded at the same time as the NE Patriots owner(whom was also photographed at an executive order signing of the last regime, which makes the "America First" claim a

 

 

 

 

[Herodotus]

1 minute ago, StraightJ said:

May I ask why you call Putin the enemy?  And it's been long known what motivated the liberation from the regime that has occupied since the bloody western led coup the overthrew the rightful government in 2014.  Right at the time when you remember the media seemlessly shifted from the longest running "current thing" and went silent on for quite awhile with Dr Faustus in hiding(not a coincidence), it is because Putin was fighting for survival(similar to what Pushed Japan to make a desperate attempt at the same, which war secratary Stimpson in memoirs said he was so relieved they got them to fire the first shot, same with Hitler finally being forced to defend his separated citizens from the slaughter they had been sustaining from communist Poles.   Russia had become aware of the mobilization of a large number of forces who were going to take the 8 year civil war(in which 14,000  had died since Victoria Nuland picked the government, trying to keep "Kllitsch" as just a celebrity helper and not in office, etc.

It was said that once the troops invaded Donbass, they would embed themselves and use the citizens as human shields, as they had with their "own" non-Russian speaking Ukrainians, as I've long reported and as I was shocked to see Amnesty International tell the truth about.  As Texas born Russell Bentley (who at age 51 after seeing the gross injustice and wanting to defend the people of Donbass, doing so for about a year on the front lines before moving to the information aspect( said, this is a liberation.  As you noted, Putin did not just wake up one day and say, "Hey, I'm going to invade and occupy a nation because the US had been a bad influence on me with their repeated history of doing so!".

Bentley and 1 other unrelated independent reporter actually both used the same phrase maybe roughly a few months ago, saying that the Western media isn't just a little off, or even off most of the time, they both said the reports were literally "180 degrees" from the truth, literally the opposite. The old crying out in pain as they stab you in the back, which reminds me of the best line of the whole thing. (I picture it being done like Jim Mora PLAYOFFS?).  "NAZIS?  There are no Nazis in Ukraine, the whole thing is run by jews!!"  -Joe BIden 

Anyhow, unlike the US, Russia did NOT go in and do "shock and awe" bullshit, because these people are there brothers, and their goal was to limit death and destruction as much as possible, not to aware contracts to their cronies and cause terror and instability which is the main weapon those whole control your society use.

I don't normally like coming in here, but have a couple of times recently to see if it was true that SpikedProtein had accused HK of posting child pornography, but saw that thread was way too long to wade through looking for such a claim.   BUT I ddi come by a few months ago and was shocked to see a former hardcore TDS survivor @Professor Pigworthposting a truthful article on the matter.  I hadn't been back or read after that, but figured for sure by now you'd know all these things....especially you hero, with your interest in the area.  I am not being melodramatic when saying i am not sure if this lack of knowledge on your part after seeing what Pigworth posted several months ago might be even more shocking than me seeing him post that.   I mean you generally get things right. Like you identified one of 2 groups of people living toward the Middle East that we are not allowed to mention by name(and why Bernie was just on a talking tour and was not actually running or outraged at DNC collusion against him, a position a President would never be allowed to have..... though it's ok for Jared Kushner to break UN law by doing the opposite of Bernie, and stealing more land.  He just was ordered to pay $3,5 million dollars and was assigned a "special master" like his father in law for being a slumlord in Baltimore.  Something tells me his West Bank settlements aren't as slummy.

Anyhow, you identified the name of the people their in 400 BC, the name that remained until after WW2 when the British who had orchestrated the 2 events to turn it from the economic war into a hot war, renamed it when finally honoring the end of the Balfour Declaration.  Speaking of that lord, you way be interested to look up which lifetime achievement award the most powerful one of this  earth was awarded at the same time as the NE Patriots owner(whom was also photographed at an executive order signing of the last regime, which makes the "America First" claim a

 

 

 

 

I am not, any more than I would have called North Vietnam the enemy.  However, I was solely referencing The Fog of War with Robert S. McNamara

[foster]

I would say that gaining access to the agricultural production of Ukraine would be one reason, complete control of the Sea of Azov another, and a land bridge to Crimea would all be important strategic objectives for Putin.  I think he thought this would be as easy as Crimea and miscalculated.

[shiva2999]

3 minutes ago, foster said:

I would say that gaining access to the agricultural production of Ukraine would be one reason, complete control of the Sea of Azov another, and a land bridge to Crimea would all be important strategic objectives for Putin.  I think he thought this would be as easy as Crimea and miscalculated.

I'm pretty sure Putin was and is realistic about the situation.

He never said what he planned would be a cake walk. That's purely a western supposition.

[Herodotus]

21 minutes ago, foster said:

I would say that gaining access to the agricultural production of Ukraine would be one reason, complete control of the Sea of Azov another, and a land bridge to Crimea would all be important strategic objectives for Putin.  I think he thought this would be as easy as Crimea and miscalculated.

No, he said denazify, demilitarize, and defend the sovereignty of DPR and LPR and Russia.  He in fact said he would not occupy Ukraine (and he has not). Zaprozhiye and Kherson voted to be part of Russia.  Oh its cynical, but then so was Bidet's Kosovo referendum. He has actually been true to his word

 

He denazified Ukraine as AZOV and AIDAR and Right sector are gone

 

He demilitarized them.  Their best forces are gone and NATO, per CNBC, is running out of weapons

He has protected DPR and LPR as they are part of Russia

Also Russian territory in Crimea is protected as it its fresh water supply.

 

Think its cynical?  Well do keep in mind Biden sees Kosovo as independent even if Serbia calls that referendum a sham

 

He never said it would be easy and nor did he say he would occupy Ukraine long term.  So where is his lie? 

[HipKat]

Cool! TWO threads about Ukraine on the same day!

By the same person....

[ICRockets2]

1 hour ago, StraightJ said:

May I ask why you call Putin the enemy?  And it's been long known what motivated the liberation from the regime that has occupied since the bloody western led coup the overthrew the rightful government in 2014.  Right at the time when you remember the media seemlessly shifted from the longest running "current thing" and went silent on for quite awhile with Dr Faustus in hiding(not a coincidence), it is because Putin was fighting for survival(similar to what Pushed Japan to make a desperate attempt at the same, which war secratary Stimpson in memoirs said he was so relieved they got them to fire the first shot, same with Hitler finally being forced to defend his separated citizens from the slaughter they had been sustaining from communist Poles.   Russia had become aware of the mobilization of a large number of forces who were going to take the 8 year civil war(in which 14,000  had died since Victoria Nuland picked the government, trying to keep "Kllitsch" as just a celebrity helper and not in office, etc.

It was said that once the troops invaded Donbass, they would embed themselves and use the citizens as human shields, as they had with their "own" non-Russian speaking Ukrainians, as I've long reported and as I was shocked to see Amnesty International tell the truth about.  As Texas born Russell Bentley (who at age 51 after seeing the gross injustice and wanting to defend the people of Donbass, doing so for about a year on the front lines before moving to the information aspect( said, this is a liberation.  As you noted, Putin did not just wake up one day and say, "Hey, I'm going to invade and occupy a nation because the US had been a bad influence on me with their repeated history of doing so!".

Bentley and 1 other unrelated independent reporter actually both used the same phrase maybe roughly a few months ago, saying that the Western media isn't just a little off, or even off most of the time, they both said the reports were literally "180 degrees" from the truth, literally the opposite. The old crying out in pain as they stab you in the back, which reminds me of the best line of the whole thing. (I picture it being done like Jim Mora PLAYOFFS?).  "NAZIS?  There are no Nazis in Ukraine, the whole thing is run by jews!!"  -Joe BIden 

Anyhow, unlike the US, Russia did NOT go in and do "shock and awe" bullshit, because these people are there brothers, and their goal was to limit death and destruction as much as possible, not to aware contracts to their cronies and cause terror and instability which is the main weapon those whole control your society use.

I don't normally like coming in here, but have a couple of times recently to see if it was true that SpikedProtein had accused HK of posting child pornography, but saw that thread was way too long to wade through looking for such a claim.   BUT I ddi come by a few months ago and was shocked to see a former hardcore TDS survivor @Professor Pigworthposting a truthful article on the matter.  I hadn't been back or read after that, but figured for sure by now you'd know all these things....especially you hero, with your interest in the area.  I am not being melodramatic when saying i am not sure if this lack of knowledge on your part after seeing what Pigworth posted several months ago might be even more shocking than me seeing him post that.   I mean you generally get things right. Like you identified one of 2 groups of people living toward the Middle East that we are not allowed to mention by name(and why Bernie was just on a talking tour and was not actually running or outraged at DNC collusion against him, a position a President would never be allowed to have..... though it's ok for Jared Kushner to break UN law by doing the opposite of Bernie, and stealing more land.  He just was ordered to pay $3,5 million dollars and was assigned a "special master" like his father in law for being a slumlord in Baltimore.  Something tells me his West Bank settlements aren't as slummy.

Anyhow, you identified the name of the people their in 400 BC, the name that remained until after WW2 when the British who had orchestrated the 2 events to turn it from the economic war into a hot war, renamed it when finally honoring the end of the Balfour Declaration.  Speaking of that lord, you way be interested to look up which lifetime achievement award the most powerful one of this  earth was awarded at the same time as the NE Patriots owner(whom was also photographed at an executive order signing of the last regime, which makes the "America First" claim a

 

 

 

 

wow it's amazing literally everything you said is wrong

[ICRockets2]

40 minutes ago, Herodotus said:

No, he said denazify, demilitarize, and defend the sovereignty of DPR and LPR and Russia.  He in fact said he would not occupy Ukraine (and he has not). Zaprozhiye and Kherson voted to be part of Russia.  Oh its cynical, but then so was Bidet's Kosovo referendum. He has actually been true to his word

 

He denazified Ukraine as AZOV and AIDAR and Right sector are gone

 

He demilitarized them.  Their best forces are gone and NATO, per CNBC, is running out of weapons

He has protected DPR and LPR as they are part of Russia

Also Russian territory in Crimea is protected as it its fresh water supply.

 

Think its cynical?  Well do keep in mind Biden sees Kosovo as independent even if Serbia calls that referendum a sham

 

He never said it would be easy and nor did he say he would occupy Ukraine long term.  So where is his lie? 

There is no Russian territory in Crimea.  Donetsk and Luhansk are not part of Russia.  All 3 are part of a sovereign Ukraine.  All 3 were unlawfully seized by Russia.  I can't believe for a second that you genuinely believe it's okay to illegally occupy and annex territory just because you want to.  If you think that's okay, you have absolutely no grounds on which to object to US foreign policy.

[Herodotus]

5 minutes ago, ICRockets2 said:

There is no Russian territory in Crimea.  Donetsk and Luhansk are not part of Russia.  All 3 are part of a sovereign Ukraine.  All 3 were unlawfully seized by Russia.  I can't believe for a second that you genuinely believe it's okay to illegally occupy and annex territory just because you want to.  If you think that's okay, you have absolutely no grounds on which to object to US foreign policy.

They think they are, everyone else can sod off 

[Herodotus]

6 minutes ago, ICRockets2 said:

There is no Russian territory in Crimea.  Donetsk and Luhansk are not part of Russia.  All 3 are part of a sovereign Ukraine.  All 3 were unlawfully seized by Russia.  I can't believe for a second that you genuinely believe it's okay to illegally occupy and annex territory just because you want to.  If you think that's okay, you have absolutely no grounds on which to object to US foreign policy.

Dunno, we have troops in Syria, we told Serbia that Kosovo doesn't belong to them so again as we established the precedent be it Kosovo or about 1/4 our country + Hawaii I can't even fake the woke you got it schizowoke?

[Herodotus]

Tell me schizowoke, you live west of the Appalachias? Yes or no? If you do then any number of Indian tribes can say your house is not legitimately part of America.  Oh wait, the Indian is no longer on your butter and the Washington football and Cleveland Baseball teams aren't named derogatory things so its all good, FUCK OFF with that shit

[Herodotus]

Guess what else special snowflake, the UN charter does recognize right of self determination, this country is based on land theft and annexation so who the fuck are you talk? This country, just 14 years ago held a sham election in Kosovo.  In 2014 it launched a nazi putsch in Kiev and then held a sham election to make it legit.  You fucking dare call another country's elections invalid? Piss off