A question for the trans experts...

[ICRockets]

2 hours ago, LiterateStylish said:

 I’m asking how you think it fits into what you’re talking about. Do you think we should accept them as animals?

I think maybe it depends what that entails?  I think it's incredibly INCREDIBLY unlikely that you'll ever have to interact with a xenogendered person, but if you do I doubt they'll impose on you beyond asking that you use it/its pronouns or possibly neopronouns like 'zhe/zher' or 'xe/him' and like....do your best?  It's VERY hard to get neopronouns without reflexively fucking up because of just good plain ol muscle memory, but it's good to try.  Like I said, I don't know much about xenogender and neopronouns but my general rule is: there's no way I know more about them than they do, so let's assume they're trying to be their most authentic selves.  The scientific consensus with...for lack of a better term "normal" trans people suggests overwhelmingly that there is an observable benefit to treating gender dysphoria with acceptance, so my gut tells me accepting xenogenders would have a similarly positive affect.

[SpikedLemonade]

Between Shiva's "I Want to Fuck My Car in It's Ass" and this thread, I was confused and thought Shiva was looking for a car transmission expert.

[jc856]

18 minutes ago, SpikedLemonade said:

Between Shiva's "I Want to Fuck My Car in It's Ass" and this thread, I was confused and thought Shiva was looking for a car transmission expert.

No, we are talking about furries here. So unless Shiva’s car is a Volkswagen Rabbit…

[Sucked In Again]

9 hours ago, shiva2999 said:

It's an element of current political discussion.

Such a shame.

[Nuke]

I am curious about what IC thinks about biological  men competing in women’s sports 

[FanBack]

12 hours ago, Very Wide Right said:

Just ignore all of that and treat the individuals mental illness.

The above quote might be dismissed as 'ridiculous' and bigoted'; however, what if this is an identity disorder?

It is not always sexually related. Bruce/Caitlin Jenner thinks he/she is a lesbian.

We are still in the dark ages of psychiatry.  This is not because there are not brilliant people in the field; this is because the human mind is so complex. 

100 years from now people may look back on this age with horror. 

[HipKat]

1 hour ago, Nuke said:

I am curious about what IC thinks about biological  men competing in women’s sports 

Great question!

[Thebowflexbody]

HipKat identifies as a toaster.....

[f8ta1ity54]

2 hours ago, Nuke said:

I am curious about what IC thinks about biological  men competing in women’s sports 

what sport?

what are your concerns?

[HipKat]

44 minutes ago, Thebowflexbody said:

HipKat identifies as a toaster.....

[HipKat]

11 minutes ago, f8ta1ity54 said:

what sport?

what are your concerns?

Seriously?

[f8ta1ity54]

Just now, HipKat said:

Seriously?

seriously isn't a valid response to my question. Cant have and honest discussion that way.

[Nuke]

42 minutes ago, f8ta1ity54 said:

what sport?

what are your concerns?

Any sport where testosterone could give someone an unfair advantage

[FanBack]

50 minutes ago, f8ta1ity54 said:

what sport?

what are your concerns?

Farrah Fallon who broke two women's skulls in MMA.  They would be a concern.   

[f8ta1ity54]

38 minutes ago, Nuke said:

Any sport where testosterone could give someone an unfair advantage

Just so I understand, are you saying that anyone who competes must have testosterone levels that fall within a specific range to qualify? Is that your only issue?

If yes, do you believe the Olympics were correct in banning cis athletes from racing because of a competitive advantage due to naturally elevated testosterone rates? 

Namibia female runners banned from Olympic 400 meters over high testosterone levels (espn.com)

It would also logically follow that cis males with higher testosterone levels than others should also be banned from competing, would you support that as well?

[FanBack]

7 minutes ago, f8ta1ity54 said:

Just so I understand, are you saying that anyone who competes must have testosterone levels that fall within a specific range to qualify? Is that your only issue?

If yes, do you believe the Olympics were correct in banning cis athletes from racing because of a competitive advantage due to naturally elevated testosterone rates? 

Namibia female runners banned from Olympic 400 meters over high testosterone levels (espn.com)

Come on, this is ridiculous.  It's like Shakespeare when men were the only ones who could act. 

[Nuke]

1 hour ago, HipKat said:

Seriously?

Come on, man. You know that’s to hard for him to twist and spin

[Nuke]

11 minutes ago, f8ta1ity54 said:

Just so I understand, are you saying that anyone who competes must have testosterone levels that fall within a specific range to qualify? Is that your only issue?

If yes, do you believe the Olympics were correct in banning cis athletes from racing because of a competitive advantage due to naturally elevated testosterone rates? 

Namibia female runners banned from Olympic 400 meters over high testosterone levels (espn.com)

So you believe that a biological male and female are on a level playing field?  Got it. OK, now IC can answer because he’s the one I was asking.

[f8ta1ity54]

Just now, Nuke said:

So you believe that a biological male and female are on a level playing field?  Got it. OK, now IC can answer because he’s the one I was asking.

In good faith, I am asking you questions to clarify your statement of:

48 minutes ago, Nuke said:

Any sport where testosterone could give someone an unfair advantage

So I'll ask again,

Should all athletes be required to have their testosterone levels fall within a specific range in order to compete in any sport where testosterone is an advantage?

Should cis women with naturally elevated testosterone levels be banned from women's sports where testosterone "gives someone an unfair advantage", like has happened to Olympic athletes in the past?

Should cis men with naturally elevated testosterone levels be banned from men's sports where testosterone "gives someone an unfair advantage"?

I am not trying to say anything else. I am simply asking you questions to clarify your position.

[Nuke]

18 minutes ago, f8ta1ity54 said:

In good faith, I am asking you questions to clarify your statement of:

So I'll ask again,

Should all athletes be required to have their testosterone levels fall within a specific range in order to compete in any sport where testosterone is an advantage?

Should cis women with naturally elevated testosterone levels be banned from women's sports where testosterone "gives someone an unfair advantage", like has happened to Olympic athletes in the past?

Should cis men with naturally elevated testosterone levels be banned from men's sports where testosterone "gives someone an unfair advantage"?

I am not trying to say anything else. I am simply asking you questions to clarify your position.

You pick out a rare case where a female has elevated testosterone and compare it to biological males always having a higher level and you say see it’s apples to apples. So you believe men have no physical advantage in sports over women? Ok. Let’s look at the history of men’s track and weight lifting vs women’s for possible examples unfair advantages. Maybe I’m grasping at straws here, but, there might be one or two historical example of biological men having an advantage over women.

[HipKat]

Look, science shows that when trans females are on HRT, after a specific amount of time, their testosterone levels fall within acceptable range. In the case of Leah Thomas, after destroying female swimming records and then taking a year off, her testosterone and estrogen levels were found to be within range. However, prior to 2020–21, the year she took off, I could not find anything that shows that she was still not benefiting from higher testosterone levels.

Also of note, prior to her transitioning and competing against men, she was not a remarkable swimmer. She was not highly rated.

[f8ta1ity54]

10 minutes ago, Nuke said:

You pick out a rare case where a female has elevated testosterone and compare it to biological males always having a higher level and you say see it’s apples to apples. So you believe men have no physical advantage in sports over women? Ok. Let’s look at the history of men’s track and weight lifting vs women’s for possible examples unfair advantages. Maybe I’m grasping at straws here, but, there might be one or two historical example of biological men having an advantage over women.

I'm asking because under your statement, which was:

1 hour ago, Nuke said:

Any sport where testosterone could give someone an unfair advantage

it would logically follow that anyone who has elevated testosterone levels "outside a specific accepted normal range" would not be able to play in those sports. Is that what you meant, yes or no?

we can move on after you answer that question. otherwise I don't see you as debating in good faith.

[Nuke]

9 minutes ago, f8ta1ity54 said:

I'm asking because under your statement, which was:

it would logically follow that anyone who has elevated testosterone levels "outside a specific accepted normal range" would not be able to play in those sports. Is that what you meant, yes or no?

we can move on after you answer that question. otherwise I don't see you as debating in good faith.

My response was intended as a cute way of saying any sport where a man has an advantage over a woman. I should have known that you would bring out a rare example of some woman having elevated testosterone and warp it into should people with high testosterone be disqualified? And the next step in our debate would be if so what’s the number? Anything  to get us off the point. Which is, do biological men have an unfair advantage over women? Which up to now you refuse to answer 

[Nuke]

21 minutes ago, f8ta1ity54 said:

I'm asking because under your statement, which was:

it would logically follow that anyone who has elevated testosterone levels "outside a specific accepted normal range" would not be able to play in those sports. Is that what you meant, yes or no?

we can move on after you answer that question. otherwise I don't see you as debating in good faith.

Alright I’ll answer your question. Natural non- performance enhanced  testosterone rates should not disqualify a biological man from competing with another biological man. Ok, your turn. Does being a biological male have any advantages against a biological female athletically?

[f8ta1ity54]

Just now, Nuke said:

My response was intended as a cute way of saying any sport where a man has an advantage over a woman. I should have known that you would bring out a rare example of some woman having elevated testosterone and warp it into should people with high testosterone be disqualified? And the next step in our debate would be if so what’s the number? Anything  to get us off the point. Which is, do biological men have an unfair advantage over women? Which up to now you refuse to answer 

If a trans woman has been taking hormones that effectively eliminates their competitive advantage, do you think they should be able to compete? So if the trans woman has lost all the muscle and bone density that gave them an advantage, does that not meet your requirement? 

Sports are not inherently fair. Is it fair that the bills have Josh Allen who is 6'5 240, runs a 4.63 and has a cannon for an arm, while the Dolphins have Tua who is 6'1 220, runs slower, and has a weaker arm? It would appear that Allen has a biological advantage.

 yes some men are superior to women in some sports. But not all sports and not all men are better than all women. But that doesn't solve the issue. The real question is "Do trans women who have been on hormone therapy have an unfair advantage over cis women? No.